Strategy for type of Poker Tourney

Matt24 · May 6, 2004

Looking for your guy's opinion on how to play in this tourney. The location is a bar and the players are bad. 27 people in, $25 buy in. $25 rebuys in the first hour if you are under 100 chips. You start with 250 chips with blinds at 5-10 in first half hour, 10-20 2nd half hour. I estimate I am one of the top 3 players in the room worst case. There were 35 rebuys last night, one guy at my table bought in 7 times. At the end of the first hour most people add on another 150 chips for $15. So Now the prize pool is approaching $2000. They pay out 6 places.

These guys call people all ins with their QJ, and theyll go all in with A no kicker if they flop top pair, 3 guys with the ace no kicker all went in last nigh on same pot. 3 guys in one pot all all in, not uncommon. Its nuts.

My strategy for this in the future is to buy in once, try to get some chips early, and dont do a add-on especially if I can get to over 1000 chips in the first hour, and if I bust out go home $25 poorer. what do you guys think?

yimmy9 · May 6, 2004

matt

my advice for you is to play very tight and very aggresive against these awful players. Learn their style of play, what kind of cards they play in every position, and learn how they bet certain hands. I wouldn't try too many bluffs since they are all calling stations. This game sounds very interesting where do you play?

If you have any more info about the over all tourney I should be able to help you a little more.

yimmy9 · May 6, 2004

If you are one of the better players then don't be afraid to buy-in more than once if you have to.

Col.Forbin · May 7, 2004

I would play very tight but when you get involved in a hand try to isolate the weaker opponents and be very agressive. sounds like a good game to play in.

Matt24 · May 9, 2004

yimmy what more info would you like?

Matt24 · May 26, 2004

A friend of mine got 3rd last week, so me and another friend went back tonight. I figured I'm getting 36-1 at least on my money with all the rebuys and add ons. We both decided to play super tight and just to move in preflop. I get AQclubs utg and move all in, no callers. I then move in with QQ, AJspades calls and 108, Ace flops I'm out. My friend moved in with AJ and lost to QJ. This game is so nuts, this one guy won 2 all ins first 2 hands, he then loses all his chips in the next 10 minutes. It is insane. If I could just double up once. btw, playing a $50 single, I have 6000, other guy has 4000, he moves in, I Have AA, I call, he flops over Q9, and what flops, Q****in 9, then next hand I have AQ, he has QJ, I move in, he calls, ****in J flops, are you kiddin me.

theswami · May 26, 2004

Matt-

No offense buddy but I think you are over estimating your edge here. Remember that QQ vs AJ all-in preflop is not as large of a favorite as you think. You should clearly win more than you lose but frankly you've said that you are MUCH better than the competition (top five in the room as I recall

) but you are narrowing your edge by going all-in preflop. If you are that much better, I would think you can outplay them post flop when you know where you stand. If you assume that Hellmuth was being truthful when he spoke about laying down those hands, IMHO, part of it is hand reading and the other part is that he figures he can get his money into the pot in better situations. You were hit with some tough beats but AJ vs QQ I don't think is that bad.

Matt24 · May 27, 2004

Swami- QQ vs AJ preflop is a 68% favorite, I think that is one heck of an edge. I might be overestimating my edge, but I am no doubt one of the best 5 players in that room, I would tear them up in a no limit ring game. The whole problem is the blind structure. Maybe I just bet wrong in no limit, but it seems to work in single tables because I am making $12 per $50 tournament right now. But the blinds start at 5-10 and we have 250 chips, say I am in lp with AQsuited, 6 callers in front, that means there is about 60 chips in, if I make my proper raise I am raising 60 chips, and now if I bet out on the flop I will be betting another 80-100 chips. Next time I will just raise preflop and try that, may be someone will move in on me wiht trash then, cuz people were moving in with A4 and even 106 once. It's nuts.

Matt24 · May 27, 2004

I do feel like I played that AQsuited wrong though, I should have called and waiting for someone to raise me, then move in, because any Ace would have called my raise. I did screw up there.

Matt24 · May 27, 2004

Maybe I should just limp with big hands and if I hit hope to get someone all in with me. The thing is preflop, people will call an all in with QJ, A4, and crap like that.

theswami · May 28, 2004

Matt-

No doubt QQ vs. AJ is a big favorite, I just wans't sure if you thought about the fact that the hand does lose. Personally, I don't think AJ sucking out on you is that tough of a beat. That's easy. Maybe I'm just used to people calling all sorts of bets after seeing 4 cards and hitting 2 or 3 outers on the river. Those are bad beats not AJs vs. QQ preflop when chips having been moving by everyone all tourney long. What was the situation, were the AJ and T8 guys short stacks, did they have to move because the blinds were eating them, were you bluffing a lot and AJ didn't want to be pushed around anymore, etc. More importantly, what are the odds that QQ wins against two unknown random hands or one random hand and one hand from a decent player? What are the odds that QQ wins against two players, AJ and T8 with all three players seeing all cards? The point I'm making is that the odds have whittled down a quite a bit when you account for the entire scenario. A lot of people see hands like QQ and think they should win 90% of the time and it's not even close.

When you first mentioned the structure I thought it sounded bad and posted as such. It appears that it promotes rebuys and fast play. Does the house take a cut of the rebuys as well as the initial fee? Many don't but if this place does, it could be one of the reasons why it is structured that way. Just consider it a more expensive tournament since it appears that it will be difficult to win unless you accumulate chips early.

As I mentioned, if you think your edge is so great that you are top 5 in the room, rebuy 'til they stop you. Regarding the all-in bets preflop, if I'm going to get multiple callers, I want no part of it. It sounds like these guys could have ANYTHING from AA to Jx so how do you know when you have the best of it. It sounds like a fun game but tough since you can't move these guys off hands. Are you trying to bully unbluffable players?

I would probably try to isolate preflop with big pocket pairs and with other stuff AK, AQ, KQ, etc. I would still raise but just a bit and not overplay the hands. If you miss and someone bets, muck the hand unless the pot favors you hitting one of your six outs. If you miss and it's checked to you in late position, will they fold to a small bet, will they bet their pairs, if not check it and see another card. Will they call big bets post flop if they miss or have medium/bottom pair? Check out a flop and if it hits then push. If you miss it sounds like you really only have a few options, go all-in or check. A small/meduim bet will not get them out even though you may have the best hand so all you will do is bleed chips with those big hands that miss.

Are the players aggressive? If not that is GREAT!! It makes it easy to get away from hands post flop. If they like to bluff then it is a bit more difficult since you can't put them on a hand.

The players do not sound like good players based on your description but the fact that there are so many of them makes it a tournament with a high variance (meaning you will lose often just keep playing and eventually you will win). This reminds me of the online .5/1 games...I'm not sure I could beat them. It's not really poker, almost the entire table calls all the way to the river then the pot gets pushed to the best hand at that point. Bets and raises get NO RESPECT.

Matt24 · May 28, 2004

I'm not really saying that it was a bad beat, I thought he made the right call with AJ, especially in that game. The same guy(he bought in over 5 times) had called an all in earlier after the flop with like 3rd pair.

No I wasnt bluffing at all, I didnt get crap all night, neither was shortstacked, but the one guy is extremely rich and just keeps on rebuying(he had the 108).

I dont know about the random card question, but I was a 55% favorite preflop over those 2 hands.

The house doesnt take a cut at all, they make thier money selling beer. Start with 27 players and there ends up being 2000 or so in the pot, and they pay 5 places, not 6 like previously mentioned. Something like 50%, 25%, 15%, 8%, 2%

Id say the strategy you are talking about is best, raise small, and if I hit, to bet, but if I miss, I better check or muck to a bet. They will call with thier low pairs and they will call top pair with no kicker. I saw probably 5 or 6 get knocked out doing that.

the players arent really aggressive, I raised on the button a few weeks ago in the first one that I played, and this guy raised all in(he showed 89. I laid down my A9suited. His body language said bluff, but I didnt know him so I laid it down. I havent really seen much bluffing besides that one instance.

Thanks for the input, I know I'm goign to take this thing down soon.

Woody0 · May 29, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Matt24:
Maybe I should just limp with big hands and if I hit hope to get someone all in with me. The thing is preflop, people will call an all in with QJ, A4, and crap like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this could well work better for the game you describe.

I would try a standard 3-4X blind raise pre-flop with KK and AA only, otherwise limp, especially when you are in late position with 5 or 6 callers in the pot. They are going to call anyway which means you lose any edge with QQ against 5 or 6 players. Of course once they figure your KK, AA stategy you will mix it.

Once you see the flop, if you are the best or one of the best players, you should easily outplay them. Knowing when to fold hands like QQ is critical.

In the early stages SURVIVAL is the key. I will reply in your book thread when I have the chance to check my library.

theswami · May 30, 2004

Matt-

That sounds like a great tourney...no fees and they make money by "selling beer." YIKES!!! A rebuy tourney filled with drunken below average poker players...nice.

Regarding the odds...55% over those two hands is not where I want to get my money in. Technically, I guess if you always got your money into the pot with a 55% edge for the rest of your life you would win but you need a large BR and opportunites for the rest of your life to make this happen. Point is, based on what you say, there will be better places to get your money into the pot. AJ and T8 are pretty chitty cards and yet you were still only a 55% fav. Get them heads-up preflop or wait for that flop of Axx when you have that K or Q kicker and some guys limp in with A4s or AT..there will be times when they may flop their kicker and an Ace or suck out on you once you put them all in but you will win more often than not and have a better edge than 55%.

If you are a better player, see the flop and prove it.

Good luck.

theswami · Jun 1, 2004

Matt24-

I saw this in an article and thought about your tourney....

"Internet players move their chips all in more frequently than players who frequent card rooms or casinos," said Andrew Glazer, an editor for Card Player Magazine, who also writes a weekly gambling column for the Detroit Free Press. "They understand you can take a lot of skill out of the game by turning it into big-bet poker."

IMHO, think about the last part of the quote during your tourney and see more flops.

Matt24 · Jun 1, 2004

Im going to limp with everything but AA, and maybe KK, there just isnt enough chips to raise a couple times, I need those chips if I hit the flop. If I can double my stack in the first half hour I think I can really go up fast, as people are begging to give thier chips up near the end of the rebuy session, hopefully I'll be there to scoop them up.

theswami · Jun 2, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Matt24:
Im going to limp with everything but AA, and maybe KK, there just isnt enough chips to raise a couple times, I need those chips if I hit the flop. If I can double my stack in the first half hour I think I can really go up fast, as people are begging to give thier chips up near the end of the rebuy session, hopefully I'll be there to scoop them up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think I would limp with everything. I would moderately raise my strong hands preflop but be ready to ditch them post flop if they catch or if danger cards hit (i.e. JJ or QQ preflop and A nad/or K flops). Let us know how you do.

Matt24 · Jun 2, 2004

well, well, well the tourney started an hour and a half ago, and im sitting at home 13 miles away at my computer so once again knocked out early. For 2 weeks in a row I get crap hands all night, nothing moderate like an 88, or a QJ, or a 109suited, just pure garbage, I've only lost 20 chips(blinds) so I got 230, and I pick up KK in middle position. I raise it up to 70(blinds were 10-20), This guy comes over the top for 255(he is all in), comes back to me, I call. He turns over A9. Well you guys know the rest, the Ace of hearts comes on the river and I am doomed. It was disgusting. I was a 72% favorite preflop, and a 93% favorite afte the turn.

Oh well, once again bad bad players. A guy at my table busted out 4 times in 10 minutes on dominated hands(each time complaining to everyone, "I lost on a high card again!"). This old woman busted out when she called an all in with 3rd pair. Then I went to watch my friend at another table before I left, this guy at that table thought all flushes tied! I'm like omg. One of these times my cards are going to hold up.

Matt24 · Jun 2, 2004

what do you suggest with hands like KQ, QJsuited, JJ, 1010, 99, during the rebuy period. Just call? from what im told once the first hour is over, it gets a little tighter, but I still dont know how much, since I'm never around to experience it.

So after that first hour I can probably go into my normal play.

theswami · Jun 3, 2004

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Matt24:
what do you suggest with hands like KQ, QJsuited, JJ, 1010, 99, during the rebuy period. Just call? from what im told once the first hour is over, it gets a little tighter, but I still dont know how much, since I'm never around to experience it.

So after that first hour I can probably go into my normal play.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm no expert but I would play them fairly passively early and try to catch a big flop. with 99,TT, JJ, QJs, KQs I would raise in late position (maybe 2x big blind) and call in early/middle position and be prepared to muck if I don't hit and/or face agression. With the pairs, if no overcards hit and you *think* you can get someone with top pair to call, I would consider shoving (be careful of tricky players who would limp with larger pocket pairs).

What we need is for KRACKMAN to drop into this thread and drop a little knowledge from a player who is good enough to play in the 10k WSOP event.